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Atheism is not sad

by Micki Krimmel on November 29, 2006 · 35 comments

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{ 35 comments… read them below or add one }

Andrew November 29, 2006 at 11:08 pm

Let’s go see The Nativity Story this weekend – it’s Vatican approved and directed by the person who gave us Thirteen and Lords of Dogtown.

mike November 30, 2006 at 12:15 am

I agree – saying that he was “sad”, which I’m sure was well intentioned, is a wee bit disrespectful. I wonder how he would feel if you walked up to him and said you heard he was deeply religious and that made you sad.

I mean the latter makes more sense – because you’re not the one preaching a fairy-tale. But still, saying you’re “sad” isn’t the way to go about either situation.

Anneke November 30, 2006 at 12:34 am

It’s funny – people conflate atheism with a lot of things it’s not, and conflate many world religions with monotheism, which they’re not. Buddhism isn’t technically even theistic.

I think the main thing is that telling your coworker or pal you find their world view/religion/belief system ’sad’ or ‘fairy tale’ means you are either pitying them or ridiculing them – neither of which is nice or even polite.

At least they didn’t grab your hands and offer to pray for you. Dang, that’s my least favorite.

Casey November 30, 2006 at 12:34 am

I used to get the “sad” comment about my Atheism from my ex-boyfriend (a born-again Christian). It always pissed me off so much… needless to say, we broke up for those differences!

Well said on all your points, Micki… I’m happy for you (and for me :P ).

Long live Atheism!!! WOOHOO!

grapesmc November 30, 2006 at 2:44 am

I would have thought “I, Ching” would have been more appropriate for those at a supertechno binary-spewing start-up. Hmm.

drew olanoff November 30, 2006 at 7:24 am

Well put Mickster. I go through phases where I question things, but it always comes back to me anyways. Your life is what you make it. Action and Reaction.

steve garfield November 30, 2006 at 8:43 am

Yay Micki!

Casey November 30, 2006 at 9:29 am

I just noticed something funny… this post is post #616… the original number of the beast!!! Mwoahaha!

Geoff November 30, 2006 at 9:38 am

Very nice post. I’ve experienced this reaction before myself. And while it seems slightly better at the time than the yelling, screaming you’re evil reaction or the incredibly uncomfortable reaction it still sucks in the end.

Steve Woolf November 30, 2006 at 11:39 am

a really excellent video. in my experience, i have only met a couple of deeply religious people who were not so judgemental as to have their vision completely clouded by what, in their view, is the right way.

personally i fall on the agnostic side of things. organized religion is dangerous. but there are times i do feel connected to other people and things in an indescribeable way. if that’s “god” or lifeforce energy, or too much cafffeine, so be it…

Brad November 30, 2006 at 1:22 pm

Alas, while your video is 100% right, it won’t alter the devout’s opinion. He/she may not think you’re sad. They are sad for you, because they believe (and internally they would say know) they’ve found the one true joy, and more than that the only escape from an afterlife of torment, and you won’t see it.

If you thought that (which you don’t, and neither do I) wouldn’t you feel sad for those who hadn’t found it, and were proud of not finding it, and looked a little down on you for thinking you had found it?

To try to sit in their shoes, imagine you met somebody who decided to remain a virgin all their life (like a priest) in spite of you telling them just how wonderful sex and passionate love can be. They insist that “based on fact” it clearly causes some of the greatest pain in the world, and the joy is fleeting, so they are happy in their virginity — and they are.

Woudl it be wrong for you to feel sad for them? Would it be insulting?

Clintus November 30, 2006 at 1:37 pm

I can’t hear your audio because the built in speaker at work blows, but I’m very stoked that you have posted another video. It’s been a while. I forget which on it was, but it was a video you posted a few months back that caught my attention in the first place. Now you are one of my daily stops. Can’t wait to get home and hear what you have to say.

mickikrimmel November 30, 2006 at 3:08 pm

That’s a really great point, Brad. And I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion. What irks me about this whole thing is that the devout often complain about atheists’ attitude of superiority – that we look down on them as intellectually inferior.

I’m trying really hard not to do that (and it’s difficult). Especially since having a conversation about this with someone in my life who I think is super intelligent (and is also in his own words, “JesusFreaking.”

It is wrong to assume that your source of happiness is the only one and that others must be missing something if they haven’t found it. You never pity your equal.

aaron November 30, 2006 at 5:31 pm

“It is wrong to assume that your source of happiness is the only one and that others must be missing something if they haven’t found it.”

That’s so simple and true. Rad post MK, rad.

Clintus November 30, 2006 at 9:47 pm

Good stuff, and excellent point. More Mickipedia show please :)

unclealex December 1, 2006 at 1:53 am

that’s my girl. Amazing!

A little something for you:

“If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with him
In all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?

And yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
Yeah, yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah

What if God was one of us?”

That’s Joan Osborne. hehe.

Here’s the Soft Pink Truth (Drew Daniels):

“Jesus was a cock sucking Jew from Galilee
Jesus was just like me
A homosexual nymphomaniac
A homosexual nymphomaniac”

I guess what I’m getting at is – Music is my religion. Who’s with me?

Oh my Music! Thank Music for Music!

mickikrimmel December 1, 2006 at 2:12 am

Music is my boyfriend. Music is my girlfriend. Music is my dead end. Music is my imaginary friend…. Yeah, CSS!

zadi December 1, 2006 at 2:20 am

thank god for you micki. thank god! ;)

my family thinks i will burn in hell for my agnostic beliefs or at least be sent to limbo – but as we both know, that’s not possible anymore… i mean jesus christ!

and yes, focusing on the here and now, instead of the hereafter, makes life so much more enjoyable.

Clintus December 1, 2006 at 12:32 pm

Amen Zadi ;)

ryan December 2, 2006 at 12:04 pm

interesting timing – was this your coworkers response the the november issue of wired?

Robby Russell December 2, 2006 at 6:20 pm

Thanks… I reposted this on “NewAthei.st”:http://blog.newathei.st/2006/12/3/atheism-isn-t-sad.

Zoetica December 2, 2006 at 7:35 pm

This is worthwhile. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Good work!

mickikrimmel December 3, 2006 at 11:35 am

Ryan, I think this was his response to my blog post about the new issue of Wired. Atheism is totally in the cultural zeitgeist right now. It’s important that we keep the heat on it while we have a bit of momentum! Thanks for your kind words, everyone. They warm my cold atheist heart.

blottoottoman December 3, 2006 at 8:02 pm

Brad, excellent point. I feel sadder when people don’t even address any of these questions. Most atheists, I’d say, have given serious thought to the issue of the existence of God. Unfortunately, I think that many of them have arrived at their conclusion through their experiences with organized religion. To reject the notion of God because of the negative aspects of organized religion is akin to rejecting the ideals of freedom and democracy that our country is supposed to represent because our political system is so corrupt. That doesn’t make sense to me. It’d be like saying that we don’t need FEMA because of their bungling during hurricane Katrina.
Micki, I appriciate your efforts to not look down on believers as “intellectually inferior”, however difficult it is. Although people like Francis Collins should make it easier for you. He is the diretor of the National Human Genome Research Institute and lead the effort that mapped the human genome a few years ago. Mr. Collins, along with other prominent scientists, believes that God and science are compatible.
Also, as micki said, atheism is in vogue right now. I think that, to some extent, that’s also a knee-jerk reaction to “conservatism”. It’s another form of rebellion. I’m not saying that about anyone in particular. It’s just a general observation.
If anyone’s interested, Time magazine recently had a really good article: http://tinyurl.com/yfnfu4
I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m proselytizing. I just think that’s it’s a fascinating debate.

blottoottoman December 3, 2006 at 10:32 pm

oops… here’s the first page of the Time magazine article. The previous link takes you to page 2 of the article.
http://tinyurl.com/ymbzq2

todd December 6, 2006 at 12:12 pm

i really enjoyed you comments – there is nothing sad about it.

it made me think of a couple of random things. Ursula K. Le Guin who, among other things, is an atheist did a translation of the Tao Te Ching a few years ago. your friend might be interested in looking at that.

also, i think that atheists, agnostics, non-theists of all types should make sure to go beyond the debate about the existence of a god (which gets so boring after awhile) and effort and energy on what it means to live in a world without a god. what does it mean to how i might live or think or do? i find much talk about the lack of god, but doesn’t it seem like everyone is still acting like there is one? it’s like many atheists who talk about a moral code that is implicit in atheism that somehow surprisingly sounds like the same ones we get from religion.

Jason Sperske December 7, 2006 at 4:08 pm

When you said “I’ll only believe in something if you can prove to me that it is real”, that made me sad. For me, being an atheist was not a complete thing. My identity as a Christian isn’t about knowing what I once did not know (though that is part), but about trusting that beyond the things I know there is a purpose. And purpose was something chaos theory (yes I was one of those kinds of atheists), and all of the other logical arguments for a “creator less” existence could never give me. My journey of faith is a deeply personal one, but one aspect of the joy that I have experienced is evident in my desire to share that with others. Not knowing your friend’s experience or faith I can only assume that his sadness for you comes from a similar place, not because the Bible tells us all that we should, but because it is only natural for a compassionate person to feel so.
I do not know you, and I am in no place to judge your character or belief system, but I feel compelled to pray for you, and if you have some time I would seriously second the Francis Collins book recommendation. I haven’t read the book yet, but I have seen him speak a few times and followed his book tour on NPR (yes Christian’s listen to public radio). The man is a truly eloquent speaker and does a wonderful job describing the incredible sense of wonder that drives an analytical mind like his.
-Jason

mickikrimmel December 8, 2006 at 12:34 am

Jason, it sounds to me like you weren’t an atheist. You were lost and confused and looking for a way to rebel. I am not. I am happy and have what I consider to be a complete worldview. Please do not project your experiences onto me. But thanks for praying for me, assuming your doing so actually comes from a place of human compassion and not condescension. May that bring comfort to you.

B – Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. I’m familiar with Francis Collins’s argument and I’m sure it brings comfort to many believers. But it still defies logic. Every argument I’ve ever seen to prove the existence of God presupposed that God exists. Well, if God is outside of space and time, why couldn’t he have created the universe? Sorry, I’m not following… And how do we have any insight into what’s outside of space and time?

My atheism does not come from a rejection of organized religion. I’m not a rebellious teenager. Yes, organized religion sucks even worse than FEMA but religion itself has its own dark side even without the horny priests and terrorist camps.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for leaving comments. I hope the discussion continues. And I’m super happy that this discussion is happening so much right now on the web and in our culture. Even if we can’t agree, it can’t be bad to talk about it.

Todd, you are my hero for this: …effort and energy on what it means to live in a world without a god. what does it mean to how i might live or think or do? i find much talk about the lack of god, but doesn’t it seem like everyone is still acting like there is one? it’s like many atheists who talk about a moral code that is implicit in atheism that somehow surprisingly sounds like the same ones we get from religion. —- Super interesting and a really important next step for the conversation.

todd December 8, 2006 at 2:08 pm

Super interesting and a really important next step for the conversation.

I hope so. This was the most disappointing aspect of the Wired article. What Harris and especially Dennett say in regards to this is really not sufficient. Dennett is correct that we don’t necessarily have good reasons to believe some of the (non-religious) things we do, his answer of continuing with absolutes or “sacred values” seems unworkable. Of course, people much smarter than me have struggled with finding another way between nihilism (regardless of what they call it) and an absolute morality (with or without god) for a very long time so I certainly can’t fault someone for not having a good solution. I hope that people keep looking, though.

Bubba December 9, 2006 at 10:23 am

You’ve got great tits!

Jim d December 22, 2006 at 10:40 pm

“What irks me about this whole thing is that the devout often complain about atheists’ attitude of superiority – that we look down on them as intellectually inferior.

I’m trying really hard not to do that (and it’s difficult).

Ironically, your snarky comment about your struggle to not feel superior is, in fact, a passive-aggressive assertion of your superiority.

I think religion’s most damning indictment is that series of atrocities done in it’s name. However, I think that will continue regardless of what people believe (or don’t believe).

The atheist argument of pure logic rings hollow to me. We love, kill, daydream, work, sacrifice, feel heartache, and we struggle. Atheism says there is no “why”, we just do it and there is nothing more and nothing else. Complete? Hardly. If anything,it sounds like a cop-out. A way to slam the drown out the millions of questions that remain unanswered.

My atheist friends say “how can God exist if he allows such bad things to happen”. I can’t defend this. I don’t know a good answer. But there’s another side to that same question. Why can’t science free me of the pain of losing my father to cancer two years ago? What is the logical purpose of me being saddled with these emotions?

You’re not superior. You just want answers the same as I do.

Jim d December 22, 2006 at 11:06 pm

Sorry for the tone of my last post (and the bad grammar – I really need to write these write these in a word processor first). The last line made it out as an attack on “you” a.k.a. “Micki”, when I really meant “you” a.k.a “all you godless troglodytes” ;-)

Javier January 2, 2007 at 1:22 pm

Micky, as an anthropologist i can tell u that the definition made is very mature. U see the religion as a social construction rather than a supernatural phenomena, u must note that as Marx worte “… Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.”

Big Hug,
Javier Bs. As.
Argentina

IRELAND-jmdm March 3, 2008 at 5:46 pm

I think it’s “sad” that you have no faith. If for you, once you die that’s it, then what’s the point going through all of this. This life. This heartache, the pain, the misery, the hardship…

Having faith (and indeed doubts) it gives me a great sense of existence and I believe that when I die I will join my beautiful friends and family that have left me.

The sheer size and scale of the universe in all of it’s glory is way too complex to be a “coincidence”, this is a gift from the creator of everything.

I’m not a devout and I’m in no way claiming that I know everything but I would be upset if my other half informed me that they were an atheist. God bless if I am lucky enough to have a child of my own soon I will show them that a belief in Jesus Christ is more than simply “Where are the facts?!” but it hold great comfort to anybody that believes that he exists and he is waiting for you in eternal happiness. I would like to leave you with this poem, please Micki read it. I want you to (if you can) imagine this poem to be real, like a small voice in your head…

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the LORD. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one belonging to him and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he questioned the LORD about it: “LORD, you said that once I decided to follow you, you’d walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don’t understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.”

The LORD replied: “My precious, precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you”

Peace
Himself

Byron Church July 6, 2008 at 8:13 am

What does one say to a person that would hang the footprints “poem” on their wall ? How sweet and naive . That a half-baked Hallmark verse would give our fragile minds comfort is scary enough , but to think of printing up a zillion fresh copies to send off to the one dollar stores makes me cringe ! I’m guilty myself though . I always loved the picture of the children crossing the bridge , safe in the wings of beautiful angles . Hanging above so many loved children . What would a good atheist put up in its place ? I guess the answer is – Anything that empowers a clear healthy place in the real world . That picture doesn’t need angles . It needs healthy kids on a well kept bridge . Nice website I’ll pass it around . Thanks

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